erwin's Approach to Enterprise Architecture

So based on that, how important is Erwin in the journey as a partner working with you? Yeah, no, I think Erwin is very key, key partner, in the sense that they help us-- in every use case, they help us to rationalize our use case. Sometime we say we want something, but they are very good at telling us what we actually need, when they understand what the business is, what the business case is. So from the business case, they deduct, or they, I would say, filter what the use case should be. Right. So that's way you should be doing it, instead of using the use case of Erwin and force-fitting it on the business. Right. So it will do it the other way around. So the flexibility and the customizability? Absolutely. [INAUDIBLE] Absolutely. And they have been very great partner, as well, in the sense that they listen to what we-- [? where ?] [? it ?] [? hurts, ?] where the product is not really satisfying. And quickly, the response comes by saying, oh, we can do that. So we find them very resourceful, as well, to suggest options. Fantastic. And generally, when a thing goes wrong, it's more that the business wanted to go that way instead of listening to what Erwin was doing, so-- was advising. So I think we learn from that as well. So-- Yeah, hopefully, it is a partnership that we can both work-- Absolutely. We can both work together and you help us create better tools. Exactly, create better tools [INAUDIBLE]. And we help you actually have a better architecture within the organization. Yeah. So I think it has been a very good partnership, and yeah, so we continue to voice wherever area we are not too happy, or we want more. We continue to kind of express that, and Erwin responds the way that they respond. So the partnership so far is actually good, yeah.